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Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by llopis

whattheproblemis wrote:

If you go into the game thinking you have to mitigate the rolls of dice, you will make different choices about where to place a building (for example). You may want to place it in a nice juicy spot to complete a region, but if that spot is adjacent to only 1s and 2s, and most of the other open spots on your board that provide legal placement of new tiles are also 1s and 2s, it might be better to place that building somewhere else that opens up new placement spots that are NOT 1s and 2s. A place that provides legal placement for new tiles with a dice roll of 4 and/or 5 might be far better since it gives you more options with future dice rolls.


That's a really good point. I never once considered that during the games, but something along those lines ocurred to me last night, after I finished the game. I wondered if there was this whole strategy I was unaware of to set things up to make sure you have reasonable choices independently of the dice roll. I dismissed the thought as too convoluted, but maybe that's a big part of the strategy instead of taking a "greedy algorithm" approach and simply trying to maximize what you can do each turn.

I think that part of the problem is that the last game I played in this style was Village, which is very similar minus the dice rolls. So I think I was trying to ignore the dice and just being annoyed at them because they were getting in the way :)

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm going to rethink how I approach the game, try again, and report back.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by Wraith75

arkayn wrote:

And Luna and Die Speicherstadt. Possibly some of his other games, but those, Castles, and the ones you mention are the only ones I've played. I think this is the only Feld game I know that has dice in it (I think Macao does, also?).


Macao uses dices, as do Roma I and II (Arena).

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by senorcoo

roberious wrote:

One of the best mechanics in this game is the workers and they help to balance the luck factor of the dice rolling.


Which is very much like Troyes uses influence to alter dice. The mechanics that allow the mitigation of luck are great. At the same time, not having those elements leaves you at the mercy of the dice. :devil:

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by JeffyJeff

JeffyJeff wrote:

I was going to point you to another thread I thought existed where someone felt that rolling doubles in this game was a bad thing and they proposed a house rule, but I can't for the life of me find it :(

found it!

small variant when rolling double

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by llopis

JeffyJeff wrote:



Interesting. I'm going to play the next game by the standard rules, but I might keep that in mind. I agree with some of the comments in the thread that rerolling might make it too powerful. Maybe getting a free +1/-1 adjustment to one of the dice might be better.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by freddieyu

My comment is to come in with the mindset of NOT fighting the dice, but rather by "going with the flow" and working WITH the dice, not against them.

Having a rule which allows you to always have an ability to modify the dice is a sort of "cop out" from the spirit of the game methinks. Besides, there are actually many choices with the dice results that many of the actions you do are good. In addition, there are other ways to get workers besides using the dice (ie placing the barracks building gives you 4 workers, having the yellow tile which gives you a worker for every mine you have) and I really believe that using dice to get workers is a tactic you should NOT do too often.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by Moe45673

It sounds like you've never played a dice game like this before and you're used to Yahtzee or "greedy" type games when it comes to dice. I agree that you need to transform your approach to the game.

Having said that, Trajan sounds like the game for you. Many call it Feld's magnum opus, CoB without the dice (and some other nifty mechanics).

Hopefully you'll come to enjoy it, it's good to see your little venting session was productive!

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by punkin312

Thunkd wrote:

The dice are a constraint on what you can do. You're forced to make the best possible choice with what is available. That's the game.


What he said.

You just don't like the game- that's okay but I think this is what makes the game so great.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by chris1nd

Dice rolls that don't match what you are trying to do just create an inefficiency as you have to go get workers.

But I have not seen that mines, castles, or any other path is much better. If you do not get mines, get ships, move first, and sell lots of goods to make money.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by mannig12

Hi, to all

First, I think this game is N O T chess, or a chess-like game !

If we want to play WITHOUT surprise, destiny, fortune etc.
there are only few games to do this !

This IS a very good game, with a lot of mechanism to reach the win.

And it is a game for experienced players !
Therefore our game-gang use house rules,
like with a lot of fine games, we play.

The simplest way here is to have a 6set of the dice-numbers,
if they ALL are used, have the next set. (double for 2-dice games);
for ex. this works fine with "talisman".

So try !

I think a game-creator like (here) Stefan Feld gives us with a very good game the base (!) idea,
and then (experienced !!) players make their own best playable game from it, depending of their group liking.

Manfred


Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by Moe45673

Hey Manfred,

if you feel the game needs houseruling, that's cool! What do you think is lacking in this game to the point you modify the rules?

Are you talking about cards like the event deck in Catan?

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: Strategy:: Re: After many losses I sat down to come up with a strategy and this is what I came up with...

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by CarlG

Update #5:

Played another 2p game with my wife. I used board 4 and Kelsey used board 6.

Here is the breakdown of our scores:

Carl 198 points

farms 9
knowledge tiles 40
shipping 24(12 goods)
towers 0
completion 15(three large)
subtotal: 88

Kelsey 172 points

farms 20
knowledge tiles 30
shipping 10(5 goods)
towers 12
completion 12(two large, one small)
subtotal: 84

This was a weird game in that the farms didn't really work for either of us. Fortunately it was a tacked on area for me whereas Kelsey was focussing on it but was ultimately frustrated in it. She was hoping to chain both sheep and cows, however at the end of the game she ended up with 3 sheep tiles in the 4 tile pasture, and 1 cow tile in the two tile pasture thus scoring no points for completing those regions. I completed only one 3 tile pasture region and picked up a trio of 3 animal tiles(of different animals) as I also had the animals knowledge tile.

You can see that our subtotals are fairly close but I think these numbers show the difference:

Carl: 26 total tiles, 12 areas completed(one five region), 1 tile in an unfinished area.

Kelsey: 27 tiles, 9 areas completed(one six region), 5 tiles in unfinished region.

My wife chained buildings well as she usually does(she used up all her building spaces) but she made some bad choices as she ended up wasting 5 tiles that didn't score her completion bonuses.

For myself, I only managed to chain once or twice but I had a good economy going as I built 3 mines as well as had the knowledge tile that gives you two silverlings when shipping goods. So while I chained less, I was competitive in tiles bought. Also, I ended the game with 9 coins so I could've even bought more(however at that point it was no longer worth it). Also, I only had one wasted tile when it comes to completion bonuses.

My focus this game was on shipping, mines, and knowledge tiles. I actually only played 6 buildings total in this game. I am noticing that I have been leaning fairly strongly to a shipping strategy these last couple plays, especially in a 2p game where animals are so unpredictable. I think the advantages are too strong to ignore. Here is the advantage to a shipping over animal strategy(in a 2p game):

Animals:

1) dependant on what comes up and in what order.
2) gives you nothing to help during game play; only gives out points.
3) If done right can net you a ton of points(50+).
4) only takes 12 total actions to get you those points.
5) There are only 2 knowledge tiles that can fall in line with this strategy and one is only worthwhile if you get it early and the other will likely only net you 8 points.

Shipping:

1) no dependance on what order things come out.
2) gives you turn order advantage alongside goods.
3) If done right can net you decent points (26ish).
4) takes more than 12 total actions to accomplish this.
5) all the actions over the 12 for taking and placing the ship tiles(shipping goods) net you income to help during game play.
6) There are only 2 knowledge tiles that score you points through shipping but they are not time dependant and one can be worth arounf 18, and the other around 12ish(if played well).
7) On top of these two point knowledge tiles there are many other knowledge tiles(extra silverling, extra worker, grab tiles from two adjacent depots) that can also flow into the shipping strategy

But this is the main one:

8) Because you have turn order advantage, you can more than likely get these beneficial knowledge tiles to increase your score. On the flip side you can deny someone focussing on an animal strategy decently easily. So when that 4 animal tile comes up you can give yourself those 4 points and limit the big pay out for your pastured focussed opponent. Also, you will have turn order advantage to snipe one of the animal knowledge tiles(the one that gives you points for different types of animals) that fits nicely with a shipping strategy where your focus is not on animals.

Shipping just gives you a whole lot more control on the game. It gives you the first crack at the best tiles, it puts you in a situation to mess with your opponents plans, you can find more synergies with more of the knowledge tiles, and you can net yourself more income along the way.

So I guess my main takeaway from this game is that the superiority of the shipping strategy has been made more clear to me. I am interested to see if my opinion of shipping will be the same with higher player counts. I am also interested to see if a shipping AND pastures strategy is a possibility. I am also curious how dynamics shift if multiple players focus on shipping(pastures with their crazy point multiplication seem to entice newer players).

One more update to go and then I will attempt a review!

Happy Gaming!





Shipping



Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by bop517

llopis wrote:

JeffyJeff wrote:



Interesting. I'm going to play the next game by the standard rules, but I might keep that in mind. I agree with some of the comments in the thread that rerolling might make it too powerful. Maybe getting a free +1/-1 adjustment to one of the dice might be better.


I dunno, is rolling doubles *really* an issue? Because you can use the dice in various ways I don't think is any different than any other roll. Roll a pair of sixes, use one to ship (for instance) and the other to place a building you have in your queue, for example. Also, you do have the workers to change it up if you want.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by arkayn

bop517 wrote:

I dunno, is rolling doubles *really* an issue? Because you can use the dice in various ways I don't think is any different than any other roll. Roll a pair of sixes, use one to ship (for instance) and the other to place a building you have in your queue, for example. Also, you do have the workers to change it up if you want.


I feel like it might be mathematically provable that rolling doubles is generally worse than rolling two different numbers. For example, assume you're only interested in taking a tile and placing a tile and don't have any workers. Rolling a 3 and a 4 will allow you take a 3 and place a 4 or take a 4 and place a 3. Rolling a pair of 6's will only allow you to take a 6 and place a 6. Half as many options. That's not a proof certainly, and is a very simplified case, but I think it holds up.

I don't think that the game needs a houserule to deal with doubles. It's slightly unlucky to roll doubles, but it's not that horrible, and it should even out anyway. But I also wouldn't be opposed to playing with a houserule that said you could reroll doubles once, or maybe even get a free worker when you roll doubles. (Again, not saying it needs it, but I wouldn't mind trying it if someone else at the table wanted to.)

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: Rules:: Re: Tiebreaker in different language rules

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by bkunes

liken@xtra.co.nz wrote:

If you read the entire thread, it doesn't leave any room for doubt. The english translator freely admits that he got it wrong.

IF that is the case, my wife and I experienced our first tie today. She had 9 empty tile spaces, I had 8. I thought I had won (English rules), but apparently she did. She will be delighted.

All this after playing the turn wrong after 33 plays... geesh! When will the madness end!? At least we still enjoy playing this game regardless.

:meeple: Keep playing...

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by starfix

freddieyu wrote:

My comment is to come in with the mindset of NOT fighting the dice, but rather by "going with the flow" and working WITH the dice, not against them.


Completely agree.

I've played this game fairly often. I've brought it to almost every game session I've gone to for the past year and I've even gotten my girlfriend to play it with me. I've won more games than I've lost. I do the best I can with what the dice give me. When I've lost I rarely blame the dice - it's because someone played better than I did. The dice usually don't affect the outcome of this game.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: A great game spoiled by dice rolling?

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by Florik

I really enjoy this game, and usually I manage to "go with the flow", but I know what you mean, Noel. It happened to me again yesterday. The second half of the game, I rolled mostly sixes. After a while, there was nothing to do with sixes for me. I had no fields with that number left, and I couldn't use the tiles offered for 6.

I finished thet 2-player game at 154 points - worst ever score for me. And that although I was in the lead after two out of five rounds.

Nevertheless, keep playing, this only happens in one game out ot ten.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: Starting player never changed.....the entire game.

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by rvdjeep


When I play my girlfriend she always go for the boats, I know she will, I focus on other things, use boats only to fill up a small section.

I dont think its good to stray away from you're strategy just to become the first player again.

I mostly play 2 player, so maybe with 3 or 4 it can become more important.

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: Starting player never changed.....the entire game.

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by riastradh

No you don't reset start players each turn, just play in the cumulative order indicated on the ship track.

I've seen games go both ways - where there is heavy competition over ship tiles and start player, and some where it's broadly ignored. In a case where the ship tiles were hot with everyone except one player, I've seen the guy running fourth the whole game win by a wide margin (he focused on buildings and bonus knowledge tiles).

Reply: The Castles of Burgundy:: General:: Re: Coloured bags for the hex tiles: An easy way to pimp the game

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by rvdjeep

Great idea!

I will try to get my wife on board hehe :ninja:
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